As i was helping guests get through the protesters and into the venue, i looked around and saw they were all under 25, white ( with one possible exception), middle class. Every word they shouted was either a lie or false. They’ve been fed talking (shouting) points. I believe their ignorance and innocence is being exploited.
Shoot I wish I could have introduced myself. I didn't know really anyone there (to look at) besides one woman from WDI and Bindel.
About the protesters, absolutely. It's just talking points. Not a lot of deeper thought. To be generous, I think it comes from media simply not doing balanced reporting on this and the algorithms that keep them trapped reading the same affirmative information.
Good article. When I left the March 8 event, the protestors who had been outside and screaming throughout the 2 hour event had been allowed into the building outside of the theatre
there were about 20, mostly women and a few men in kink clothing and masks
One man in his twenties called out to me in his words "butch to butch" and told me that testosterone is free at pharmacies.
I would have preferred insulin as a more needed medical treatment needing to be lower cost or free.
In any event at about three times his age, he cannot tell me anything about being a butch lesbians, his words proved how little he does, no matter what he called himself
more concerning was the protestors filming my exit and clearly waiting for the organizers and speakers who were still inside.
they had no lawful business filming anyone and they have no business being bothered that women exist.
men are the danger, not women. removing words from women, including words to describe women, is gaslighting.
gender ideology has undermined the teaching of sciences and critical thinking in a way religion vs science did not.
Fascinating to see one person trying to reason on the topic of alleged "safety", though not surprising to see it downvoted. The most bizzare protest I've ever encountered in this city.
1) Thank you to the ceaseless organizing and work of VRR and VLC.
2) I was surprized at how, even though I could hear them from the parking lot, my body had a very direct, physical response to being kindly led by the yellow-banded event volunteer through such angry, vitriolic and dis-connected humans (in my memory they were men, but maybe those were just the tall, yelly-in-my-face ones). I was ok in the "crowd", alert, curious, even bemused: but once safely in the venue, I couldn't stop crying. An embarrassing response, but probably relief from the safe delivery away from potential violence plus the feeling of: "this is why I never talk about women's erasure at work or at play" relief.
3) I was probably the closest thing to right wing nut in that auditorium. The organizers and I have many (some going back 20 years when I worked WITH them) disagreements in politics and perspective, however I was SO grateful for their work, words and wisdom, even if I had to pinch my lips for the super-left-leaning collective anti-colonial (etc) perspectives. These b*ches are holding on to the Overton window by their fingernails, and I am freaking HERE for it. 💛
Not for the first time, many of the TRA protestors seem to be deeply off. They are weird and they are pantingly excited to menace women. I am very glad no one was hurt and I also think some young women who turned up to protest may go home thinking about what their side looks like (disturbed, unsettling, excited by the opportunity to utter threats) and what the “enemy” looks like (patient, forbearing, quietly courageous)
These thoughts may take a while to ferment but the guys in dog masks may have made a few future terfs that day!
Interesting idea. Impossible to tell with the masks which ones were on the fringe, feeling uncomfortable around the mayhem and which ones were all for it. There's always hope that it peaked someone.
That is also my understanding. IMO, no question the Vancouver lesbian scene has a lot of women involved in BDSM as I’ve met a lot of them and see some of them as problematic.
Perhaps culture was an inappropriate choice of words so I’ll reflect on that.
Sorry I misread your question as hostile so responded belligerently. I do think there is a way of applying the word “culture” as a way to sort of get people on side (similar to “community”) — I don’t think that’s what you meant to do. But just conjuring associations of “here we are happy villagers following our village traditions, don’t hassle us man”
I am most definitely not hostile. I attended last year’s event where Kathleen Stock, Heather Mason and others spoke and support the work the Vancouver Lesbian Collective does. It saddened me greatly to hear in our subsequent Zoom session how they were struggling to get a broader membership. Whatever I can do to help them succeed, I will do.
That they’ve been able to get such distinguished speakers is incredible. I feel privileged to have met some of the fine feminist activists who have come to Canada to support us.
For years, I have tried to engage the gay and lesbian community to stand and tried to get involved in various groups. All alliances that I’ve observed are failing to get traction. The LGB Alliance Canada IMO completely ineffective and has failed us. I am starting to question whether it is better to drop the G and go it alone as lesbians as The Lesbian Project and the Vancouver collective have done or whether our time is better served joining feminist groups like CWSBAR who I have also tried to engage with multiple times. Each has their challenges but one thing is clear to me: we’ve past the expiry date to rise and rise we must because we’ve lost our right to speak, to gather amongst our own kind and our identities.
That we take on the toxicity of trans activists and their supporters is so important IMO. Vancouver has a huge problem in that there are some prominent gay and lesbian people behind this in your city.
Wow. Gone are the days when one might expect conservative church groups to be protesting outside a gathering of lesbians who promote women's rights. Now it's the "progressives" doing that. Couldn't find any media coverage of this at all. Maybe that's just as well. This whole deal hurts my brain way too much...
You’re right that it’s hard to make lesbians and volunteers for a rape relief centre look like the bad guys. And, it’s hard to make a bunch of goofs in dog fetish masks being obnoxious look like the good guys.
I disagree that we shouldn’t engage with them. I think Julie did the right thing by trying to talk to them and whoever filmed this did the right thing by posting the footage so that it can be reshared.
Everyone should do what makes sense to them but I don't see much utility in engaging with brats who scream in your face. It's good fodder for social media but the people who need to be challenged are those who craft, and carryout, these insane policies.
The most important thing may be simply speaking with regular people. The internet distorts this issue and makes it look like there is a huge amount of support behind this. In reality, there is big money pushing it but most people still are not on board with child sterilization and men in women's prisons. The real problem (at least in Canada) has been misinformation from the media.
I agree with most of your comments on. Still, take note of what happened when Julie walked into the crowd to try to engage them. She was not attacked and some clearly wanted to speak with her. I suspect because they know who she is and she exudes confidence. I encountered the same thing approaching blue haired LGB youth who counter protested on March 9 in my city - some backed down, looked shocked and scurried to the other side of the street. Not nearly as deplorable of a crowd or as large as this one. Unless older activists can reach LGB youth, stand up to them and ask the kind of questions she posed, I don’t think there’s much hope of turning them as they’re so far indoctrinated. It’s akin to dealing with a spoiled child who’s throwing a temper tantrum IMO - do you let them act up or do you try to talk to them?
Thanks for documenting this and sharing. You are way too kind in calling these nogoodniks "protestors". Harassers or cry-bullies would be a better fit. The masks say it all.
Side-note: it is a strange coincidence that in many/all Islamic republics, they boast of a zero percent rate of homosexuality because they consider it an illness that is treated with mandatory sex-change surgery (or death). Strange to know that your "protestors" and Iranian mullahs on the same page. I don't know what to make of that.
You're right. Startling to think of it that way. I guess there's the orthodoxy of the trans movement that disavows homosexuality but I would think that most would accept its incongruence with the ideology and not question it further. I don't think most really understand how anti-homosexual it is because there are so many gay men and women who support it.
Trans is anti feminist too. Every iteration of feminism from Mary Wolstencroft to the Suffragettes, through Friedan/Greer et al has said the differences in sexual mores can 95+% be explained away by how little boys and girls are treated. There is no inner woman different than an inner men. Trans comes along and utterly refutes that. A boy raised as a boy, enrolled in football and boxing, has zero effect on a woman born into a male body. ‘She’ was unaffected and is now and always has been what all women are - a princess who loves to play dress up. I can’t even imagine a philosophy as anti feminist as transism.
Excellent commentary. Dont know if you aware by the Free Speech Union Canada has just launched. You have to pay to join (which I think counter-intuitively is a good thing) and the money raised is used to defend people.https://fsucanada.ca/
I am pretty excited and I am going to join. There are other groups doing similar, but if you listen to Meghan Murphy she interviews Lisa Bildy about why this is different.
The issue is we need to change the culture of Canada, revert back to where we all lauded free speech. The great thing about this group is the name, its easy to understand and promote and gather members to grow the lobby.
I was there too. The idea that this was some kind of "neo-nazi" or "anti-indigenous" event is so totally ludicrous. Either these people know nothing about what radfems are about or they do know and they are intentionally misrepresenting us. And the fetish gear was so gross.
I also think last year’s venue choice was safer. The minute you pull your events to downtown BCIT campus, you’re bound to get this crowd protesting. That we keep distinguished speakers and attendees safe is paramount. I used to work 2 blocks from this location and attend classes as BCIT and whereas it was reasonably safe to be on the streets or on BCIT campus years ago it is no longer safe. I wouldn’t have walked in even with security. Because I know the “pup” BDSM crowd of lesbians from Eastside is going to show as are the incels and belligerent ones looking to pick a fight.
That’s probably a good point. I don’t know who organized the protest. It was already organized when the Reddit student posted about it. My suspicion would be though that the fact it was at a university (of sorts) which are full of brainwashed kids, contributed to the crowds showing up. You would have to ask VLC though.
I agree. Still some of them are somewhat recognizable (especially the ones with COVID masks on who try to engage with Julie) and it’s a pretty small city where counter protesters like this are fairly well known within in the community.
As i was helping guests get through the protesters and into the venue, i looked around and saw they were all under 25, white ( with one possible exception), middle class. Every word they shouted was either a lie or false. They’ve been fed talking (shouting) points. I believe their ignorance and innocence is being exploited.
Shoot I wish I could have introduced myself. I didn't know really anyone there (to look at) besides one woman from WDI and Bindel.
About the protesters, absolutely. It's just talking points. Not a lot of deeper thought. To be generous, I think it comes from media simply not doing balanced reporting on this and the algorithms that keep them trapped reading the same affirmative information.
Yea, wish I knew you!
Good article. When I left the March 8 event, the protestors who had been outside and screaming throughout the 2 hour event had been allowed into the building outside of the theatre
there were about 20, mostly women and a few men in kink clothing and masks
One man in his twenties called out to me in his words "butch to butch" and told me that testosterone is free at pharmacies.
I would have preferred insulin as a more needed medical treatment needing to be lower cost or free.
In any event at about three times his age, he cannot tell me anything about being a butch lesbians, his words proved how little he does, no matter what he called himself
more concerning was the protestors filming my exit and clearly waiting for the organizers and speakers who were still inside.
they had no lawful business filming anyone and they have no business being bothered that women exist.
men are the danger, not women. removing words from women, including words to describe women, is gaslighting.
gender ideology has undermined the teaching of sciences and critical thinking in a way religion vs science did not.
Thanks for adding these details Nina.
No worries, eh!
Fascinating to see one person trying to reason on the topic of alleged "safety", though not surprising to see it downvoted. The most bizzare protest I've ever encountered in this city.
1) Thank you to the ceaseless organizing and work of VRR and VLC.
2) I was surprized at how, even though I could hear them from the parking lot, my body had a very direct, physical response to being kindly led by the yellow-banded event volunteer through such angry, vitriolic and dis-connected humans (in my memory they were men, but maybe those were just the tall, yelly-in-my-face ones). I was ok in the "crowd", alert, curious, even bemused: but once safely in the venue, I couldn't stop crying. An embarrassing response, but probably relief from the safe delivery away from potential violence plus the feeling of: "this is why I never talk about women's erasure at work or at play" relief.
3) I was probably the closest thing to right wing nut in that auditorium. The organizers and I have many (some going back 20 years when I worked WITH them) disagreements in politics and perspective, however I was SO grateful for their work, words and wisdom, even if I had to pinch my lips for the super-left-leaning collective anti-colonial (etc) perspectives. These b*ches are holding on to the Overton window by their fingernails, and I am freaking HERE for it. 💛
I can understand that emotional response! There's some tension built up maybe that you couldn't deal with until you were inside.
Not for the first time, many of the TRA protestors seem to be deeply off. They are weird and they are pantingly excited to menace women. I am very glad no one was hurt and I also think some young women who turned up to protest may go home thinking about what their side looks like (disturbed, unsettling, excited by the opportunity to utter threats) and what the “enemy” looks like (patient, forbearing, quietly courageous)
These thoughts may take a while to ferment but the guys in dog masks may have made a few future terfs that day!
Interesting idea. Impossible to tell with the masks which ones were on the fringe, feeling uncomfortable around the mayhem and which ones were all for it. There's always hope that it peaked someone.
Curious what leads you to the assumption that the people in dog’s masks (“pups” as they’re often called in BDSM culture) are men.
Men develop fetishes and paraphilias far more often than do women.
curious what makes you call BDSM a "culture".
That is also my understanding. IMO, no question the Vancouver lesbian scene has a lot of women involved in BDSM as I’ve met a lot of them and see some of them as problematic.
Perhaps culture was an inappropriate choice of words so I’ll reflect on that.
Sorry I misread your question as hostile so responded belligerently. I do think there is a way of applying the word “culture” as a way to sort of get people on side (similar to “community”) — I don’t think that’s what you meant to do. But just conjuring associations of “here we are happy villagers following our village traditions, don’t hassle us man”
I am most definitely not hostile. I attended last year’s event where Kathleen Stock, Heather Mason and others spoke and support the work the Vancouver Lesbian Collective does. It saddened me greatly to hear in our subsequent Zoom session how they were struggling to get a broader membership. Whatever I can do to help them succeed, I will do.
That they’ve been able to get such distinguished speakers is incredible. I feel privileged to have met some of the fine feminist activists who have come to Canada to support us.
For years, I have tried to engage the gay and lesbian community to stand and tried to get involved in various groups. All alliances that I’ve observed are failing to get traction. The LGB Alliance Canada IMO completely ineffective and has failed us. I am starting to question whether it is better to drop the G and go it alone as lesbians as The Lesbian Project and the Vancouver collective have done or whether our time is better served joining feminist groups like CWSBAR who I have also tried to engage with multiple times. Each has their challenges but one thing is clear to me: we’ve past the expiry date to rise and rise we must because we’ve lost our right to speak, to gather amongst our own kind and our identities.
That we take on the toxicity of trans activists and their supporters is so important IMO. Vancouver has a huge problem in that there are some prominent gay and lesbian people behind this in your city.
Wow. Gone are the days when one might expect conservative church groups to be protesting outside a gathering of lesbians who promote women's rights. Now it's the "progressives" doing that. Couldn't find any media coverage of this at all. Maybe that's just as well. This whole deal hurts my brain way too much...
No media there as far as I could tell.
How can they report it? Two sides against each other. Trans and Lesbians! Uh oh. Best to pretend it isn’t happening.
You’re right that it’s hard to make lesbians and volunteers for a rape relief centre look like the bad guys. And, it’s hard to make a bunch of goofs in dog fetish masks being obnoxious look like the good guys.
We don't have to engage with them. It is better to engage with the average person than to try and deprogram someone who is deeply indoctrinated.
I disagree that we shouldn’t engage with them. I think Julie did the right thing by trying to talk to them and whoever filmed this did the right thing by posting the footage so that it can be reshared.
Everyone should do what makes sense to them but I don't see much utility in engaging with brats who scream in your face. It's good fodder for social media but the people who need to be challenged are those who craft, and carryout, these insane policies.
The most important thing may be simply speaking with regular people. The internet distorts this issue and makes it look like there is a huge amount of support behind this. In reality, there is big money pushing it but most people still are not on board with child sterilization and men in women's prisons. The real problem (at least in Canada) has been misinformation from the media.
I agree with most of your comments on. Still, take note of what happened when Julie walked into the crowd to try to engage them. She was not attacked and some clearly wanted to speak with her. I suspect because they know who she is and she exudes confidence. I encountered the same thing approaching blue haired LGB youth who counter protested on March 9 in my city - some backed down, looked shocked and scurried to the other side of the street. Not nearly as deplorable of a crowd or as large as this one. Unless older activists can reach LGB youth, stand up to them and ask the kind of questions she posed, I don’t think there’s much hope of turning them as they’re so far indoctrinated. It’s akin to dealing with a spoiled child who’s throwing a temper tantrum IMO - do you let them act up or do you try to talk to them?
Thanks for documenting this and sharing. You are way too kind in calling these nogoodniks "protestors". Harassers or cry-bullies would be a better fit. The masks say it all.
Side-note: it is a strange coincidence that in many/all Islamic republics, they boast of a zero percent rate of homosexuality because they consider it an illness that is treated with mandatory sex-change surgery (or death). Strange to know that your "protestors" and Iranian mullahs on the same page. I don't know what to make of that.
You're right. Startling to think of it that way. I guess there's the orthodoxy of the trans movement that disavows homosexuality but I would think that most would accept its incongruence with the ideology and not question it further. I don't think most really understand how anti-homosexual it is because there are so many gay men and women who support it.
Trans is anti feminist too. Every iteration of feminism from Mary Wolstencroft to the Suffragettes, through Friedan/Greer et al has said the differences in sexual mores can 95+% be explained away by how little boys and girls are treated. There is no inner woman different than an inner men. Trans comes along and utterly refutes that. A boy raised as a boy, enrolled in football and boxing, has zero effect on a woman born into a male body. ‘She’ was unaffected and is now and always has been what all women are - a princess who loves to play dress up. I can’t even imagine a philosophy as anti feminist as transism.
Excellent commentary. Dont know if you aware by the Free Speech Union Canada has just launched. You have to pay to join (which I think counter-intuitively is a good thing) and the money raised is used to defend people.https://fsucanada.ca/
I am pretty excited and I am going to join. There are other groups doing similar, but if you listen to Meghan Murphy she interviews Lisa Bildy about why this is different.
The issue is we need to change the culture of Canada, revert back to where we all lauded free speech. The great thing about this group is the name, its easy to understand and promote and gather members to grow the lobby.
Damn I wish I had known about this event! I would have met you there.
Dang! Next time, now that I know you're in Vancouver. Awesome.
I'm in the surrounding-ish area but can get wherever on transit. Keep me posted!
Don't engage with them. They're brainwashed and nuts.
I was there too. The idea that this was some kind of "neo-nazi" or "anti-indigenous" event is so totally ludicrous. Either these people know nothing about what radfems are about or they do know and they are intentionally misrepresenting us. And the fetish gear was so gross.
I also think last year’s venue choice was safer. The minute you pull your events to downtown BCIT campus, you’re bound to get this crowd protesting. That we keep distinguished speakers and attendees safe is paramount. I used to work 2 blocks from this location and attend classes as BCIT and whereas it was reasonably safe to be on the streets or on BCIT campus years ago it is no longer safe. I wouldn’t have walked in even with security. Because I know the “pup” BDSM crowd of lesbians from Eastside is going to show as are the incels and belligerent ones looking to pick a fight.
That’s probably a good point. I don’t know who organized the protest. It was already organized when the Reddit student posted about it. My suspicion would be though that the fact it was at a university (of sorts) which are full of brainwashed kids, contributed to the crowds showing up. You would have to ask VLC though.
Does anyone recognize any of the protesters or can they say who the ringleader was?
This is the reason they mask up. They know their behaviour is borderline harassment and could at any moment spill into violence.
I agree. Still some of them are somewhat recognizable (especially the ones with COVID masks on who try to engage with Julie) and it’s a pretty small city where counter protesters like this are fairly well known within in the community.